"I live here now"
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No they don't lmao. You're literally crying about Russia supporting Donbas secession.
They're the ones resisting Ukraine, they've been doing it since 2014.
@Grapho Tankie has a hard time forming an argument. Well, at least we know it's not a Russian troll now.
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I wont pretend to know much about South Africa or Palestine/Israel but my understanding is Palistine/Isreal are separate entities so if you were going to use civil disobedience to overcome the conflict you would have to convince the people of isreal.
Which, sounds fine.
wrote last edited by [email protected]That's like saying that the only way to defeat Nazi Germany is to convince the Germans through civil disobedience, because "Germany and France are separate entities."
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That's like saying that the only way to defeat Nazi Germany is to convince the Germans through civil disobedience, because "Germany and France are separate entities."
You're the one who said south africa
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In simple words, in colonialism a country invades another country
Ok, Russia has done that.
in the aim of taking its resources or exploiting and descriminating against its population
Ok, this has happened as well, unless you somehow think Russia... isn't going to use the territory it has captured... not like Crimea is a super strategically important port location or anything ... not like any agriculture or mining happens in eastern Ukraine...
...discrimination against the local population has been rampant with warcrimes galore against civillians, from remote arty/missile strikes to naval bombardment to executing civillians to kidnapping Ukranian children and sending them to 'you are Russian now' foster family placement programs...
but uh sure. no mass concentration camps. just mass graves and mass obliteration of civillian areas. that you'll be shot if you try to flee westward from. so you better act like you're russian now.
nope no forced cultural assimilation here, no sir.
what Russia has done is use military power to invade an area not controlled by it to change their ruling class
Ah, so you would support the US/Coalition invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan with that logic.
they want to make the population have a Russian citizenship and for the land to be under the map of Russia.
Yes that's just general conquest.
A citizen of an eastern Oblast of Ukraine after Russia takes over will still be the same as he was earlier, just now with a Russian citizenship.
This was already the case, in large numbers, before the invasion.
Just like how people in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens before 2014, but after they became Russian citizens, and Crimea is treated as a part of Russia (although not recognized by a lot of countries).
Yes, just like when Rome conquered somewhere, they placed either literally their own, or friendly but subserservient local puppets at the top of the society, declared the whole territory part of Rome.
You are also leaving out the part when Russia has hassively encouraged settlement of Russian nationals into Crimea and other eastern Oblasts.
You know, kinda like with Israel and the West Bank.
Settlers. Moving into a colonized area. Area gained by force of arms.
Settler colonialism.
... you can do a settler colonialism either with or without enslaving or forcibly assimilating the mainstay local population.
In America, we just killed most of them. Did a bit of the kidnapping and forced culturalization of children too.
Ok, Russia
Yeah Russia is ok
go play with your balls I don't care about arguing with you there's no point you're a westerner
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In simple words, in colonialism a country invades another country
Ok, Russia has done that.
in the aim of taking its resources or exploiting and descriminating against its population
Ok, this has happened as well, unless you somehow think Russia... isn't going to use the territory it has captured... not like Crimea is a super strategically important port location or anything ... not like any agriculture or mining happens in eastern Ukraine...
...discrimination against the local population has been rampant with warcrimes galore against civillians, from remote arty/missile strikes to naval bombardment to executing civillians to kidnapping Ukranian children and sending them to 'you are Russian now' foster family placement programs...
but uh sure. no mass concentration camps. just mass graves and mass obliteration of civillian areas. that you'll be shot if you try to flee westward from. so you better act like you're russian now.
nope no forced cultural assimilation here, no sir.
what Russia has done is use military power to invade an area not controlled by it to change their ruling class
Ah, so you would support the US/Coalition invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan with that logic.
they want to make the population have a Russian citizenship and for the land to be under the map of Russia.
Yes that's just general conquest.
A citizen of an eastern Oblast of Ukraine after Russia takes over will still be the same as he was earlier, just now with a Russian citizenship.
This was already the case, in large numbers, before the invasion.
Just like how people in Crimea were Ukrainian citizens before 2014, but after they became Russian citizens, and Crimea is treated as a part of Russia (although not recognized by a lot of countries).
Yes, just like when Rome conquered somewhere, they placed either literally their own, or friendly but subserservient local puppets at the top of the society, declared the whole territory part of Rome.
You are also leaving out the part when Russia has hassively encouraged settlement of Russian nationals into Crimea and other eastern Oblasts.
You know, kinda like with Israel and the West Bank.
Settlers. Moving into a colonized area. Area gained by force of arms.
Settler colonialism.
... you can do a settler colonialism either with or without enslaving or forcibly assimilating the mainstay local population.
In America, we just killed most of them. Did a bit of the kidnapping and forced culturalization of children too.
ใAh, so you would support the US/Coalition invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan with that logic.
do you think these wars were of a settler colonialist character?
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You provided a second claim from somebody else. That's not a source. Sources include verifiable facts.
If you actually bothered to read the book at least a little bit, you'd have read he actually sources a fair bit.
He's also providing an eyewitness account from his time there. I'm not sure how much more primary you want to get.
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Exactly, the Nazis in the Ukrainian government are sending Ukranians into meat grinders for the profits of the U.S. empire
I love how all the chuds from nazi adjacent instances come out of the woodwork to downvote anybody pointing out the basic facts of the situation.
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Settler colonialism a form of imperialism (theft of land, labor and natural resources of a weaker country by a stronger one), where the stronger country sets up a military garrison, and evicts or enslaves the local population. This is border conflict to halt the ever-eastward march of NATO.
The accusations of "russifying the ukrainian language" is pure projection; its the banderites who (with NATO help, Obama bragged about this one) couped Ukraine in 2014 (and who were killing thousands of civilians in the donbass) that have been attempting to make spoken russian illegal in the country. They've also been reviving nazi collaborators and building monuments to them as fast as they can.
It was the Bolsheviks (Stalin especially) who strongly supported the creation of a Ukrainian state, as it had a distinct national, lingual, and cultural character, while the western nations were opposed to Ukrainian sovereignty (The fascist dictatorhips of the 30s were essentially at war with all slavic peoples). Modern Russia wants to preserve Ukraine as a buffer state (as it was before 2014). There are many ppl more knowledgeable on lemmygrad and hexbear, that could give you a long background on this conflict.
Modern imperialism (usually) takes a different form from classical colonialism, but even with that definition, Russia can't be called imperialist as it fits none of the traits.
The Russians have occupied foreign land, commited vast numbers of warcrimes by indiscriminately blowing the shit out of civillian areas at a scale not seen in the region since WW2, and while perhaps not literally enslaving the remaining Ukranian population, they are forcibly destroying the language culture and identity of Ukranians in occupied territories, and they are settling Russian nationals in occupied areas.
That's settler colonialism.
Move into an area, claim control over it, kill those who resist strongly, kill a bunch of civillians in the take over process, culturally erase and assimilate the remaining local population, and then transplant a bunch of your own citzens from elsewhere into your new territory to make it yours.
Your comment argues against Russia being classic imperialists... which is not the same thing as expansionist settler colonialism.
The two can and often do go hand in hand... but they are not the same thing.
So basically, I can end this here, the vast majority of your reply is off topic.
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But!
::: spoiler You make some statements and claims I find to be wild, so I'll address them in this expandable section.
Efforts to russify the Ukranian language and population are not 'projection', they were Soviet policy.
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Yes, there have been and still are fascist Ukranian paramilitary and official military units and actions, and they did do horrible things in Eastern Ukraine, I do not deny that.
2014 being a Banderite coup though?
That's a bit of a stretch.
It had very significant popular support from far too many people to be reasonably described as such.
That'd be like saying the recent protests against Trump, millions of Americans all over the country... well they're actually just a Walmart coup because a wealthy Walmart heir paid for a bunch of ads.
The last part is true, the first part is a laughable mischaracterization, to imply that 10+ million Americans are actually staunchly pro Walmart-regime and all of its favored policies.
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But this is quibbling over semantic phrasing.
Sure, active, violent fascists existed and still exist in Ukraine.
... but the same goes for Russia, to a much greater extent... as modern Russia... is fascist.
Soviet Union collapsed, got shock doctrined into advanced stage capitalism, which also collapsed very fast, and is now led by a chauvanistic patriarchichal strong man dear leader who hates queers and feminists, rules in close collaboration with an oligarchichal elite, which cracks down on free speech, outright runs the media, and is absurdly jingoistic and corrupt, and manipulates elections and basically routinely openly assasinates / imprisons dissidents and political rivals that become too much of a threat.... oh right and they also incoperate the religion into the state.
I think Ukraine may be a teensy weensy bit less fascist than Russia on the whole.
Just a tad.
Telling me a fascist nation state is justified invading another flawed democracy that has significant but smaller numbers of fascists in that flawed nation state... is justified... because the small number of fascists are worse than the entire militarized fascist nation state, that has had the same strongman leader for 20 years, who has total control over the entire military of that state.... this is like an obviously farsical joke, that this is somehow morally good or justifiable.
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The US better invade Alberta to ... stamp out Trump cult members there, with indiscriminate civillian casualties and then an annexation of Alberta.
?????
The actual Nazis should have invaded Spain to uh... yeah, kill all the bad guy Carlistas and Francoistas, with indiscriminate civllian casualties, and then turn most of Spain into Lebensraum: Deutschland Westen.
?????
Japan should have invaded China to... wipe out all of Kai-Shek's forces, with indiscriminate civillian casualties, to establish Beijing down to Hong Kong as a Japanese colony instead of a Western one.
?????
Does self determination just not factor into your worldview?
Do you just not believe that a flawed system capable of some level of democratic representatiom... is preferable to that which offers none?
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Finally, if the idea here is that the ends justify the means, and the ends are: Stop NATO expansionism... well, that's arguably massively failed, as Europe is now militarily preparing itself to be able to defend against Russia without the US.
Finland and Sweden joined NATO after Russia did this thing that was supposed to produce the opposite result.
:::
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You're the one who said south africa
Sorry, I thought you meant what you asked, "What does the destruction of the apartheid state look like" and not the entirely different question, "By what means can the destruction of the apartheid state be achieved?"
The effects of the end of apartheid South Africa are the same that we aim for with the end of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel appears to only understand the language of force, and so that is the most likely means of achieving those ends.
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If you actually bothered to read the book at least a little bit, you'd have read he actually sources a fair bit.
He's also providing an eyewitness account from his time there. I'm not sure how much more primary you want to get.
If you had actually bothered to link the specific instances where he sources those claims, we would have read them.
But you didn't, because you probably didn't read a book you want us to go on a wild goose chase for. Eyewitness accounts from anglos are only good enough to wipe your ass with and even then there's better alternatives.
No facts then? Cool, I thought so.
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I dont get your point.
Whenever Russia comes up these comments sections devolve into putting the lib in madlibs.
Just nonsensical word salad from people trying to remember what looked like a zinger in another comment section but not knowing when to say it because they didn't know shit then and they sure didn't bother to learn, so they don't know shit now either.
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If said Chinese ambassador wrote a book that was also sourced (like this British ambassador's book is in a fair few places), their claims aren't disputed by any factual evidence and is generally corroborated by historians, I'd be inclined to believe them yes.
I wouldn't expect said ambassador to have a scientific study backing up every single sentence in the book. If he's writing about his experiences, that can be a valuable perspective on things. I wouldn't treat it as gospel necessarily but I can still apply critical thinking to ascertain whether or not they're a credible source.
Ok, point at those fair few (lmao) places. That was the original question.
Spare us the hot dogging, show us verifiable facts or shut up.
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Ok, Russia
Yeah Russia is ok
go play with your balls I don't care about arguing with you there's no point you're a westerner
Well that certainly is a way to convince someone of something; insult them and then other them, and use that othering as the explanation why they just aren't capable of understanding complicated concepts.
Poka poka, spasibo za vstrechu.
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Hope i didnt miss the panel where the small guys grandpa murdered a native and setup the chair and table
Fear not, you didn't miss it, that's just a thing that never happened.
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Is there a statue of limitation on generations of systematic oppression all stemming from brutal imperialism? No, seems kinda dumb for an imperialist to put that in their own law, considering.
wrote last edited by [email protected]
Jesus Christ. Imperialism from Palestinians millennia ago?Idk how y'all function day to day with delusions like these.
Palestinians can trace their ancestry to that land for far longer than Islam itself has existed. Who the fuck do you think converted to Islam? Zionists thinking the only changes in religious or ideological makeup can be due to total wholesale extermination of men, women and children is extremely telling.
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Well that certainly is a way to convince someone of something; insult them and then other them, and use that othering as the explanation why they just aren't capable of understanding complicated concepts.
Poka poka, spasibo za vstrechu.
Why would I want to waste my time to convince you of anything? you have it hard coded in your headass that I'm ebil tankie troll you're not going to listen to anything.
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Jesus Christ. Imperialism from Palestinians millennia ago?
Idk how y'all function day to day with delusions like these.
Palestinians can trace their ancestry to that land for far longer than Islam itself has existed. Who the fuck do you think converted to Islam? Zionists thinking the only changes in religious or ideological makeup can be due to total wholesale extermination of men, women and children is extremely telling.
Helps that im not the one making the arguments.
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Sorry, I thought you meant what you asked, "What does the destruction of the apartheid state look like" and not the entirely different question, "By what means can the destruction of the apartheid state be achieved?"
The effects of the end of apartheid South Africa are the same that we aim for with the end of Israel. Unfortunately, Israel appears to only understand the language of force, and so that is the most likely means of achieving those ends.
So how is "force" harm reduction?
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So how is "force" harm reduction?
The same way D-Day was harm reduction. This isn't complicated lmao.
I know you're not actually a pacifist since you're a zionist, quit playing dumb.
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The same way D-Day was harm reduction. This isn't complicated lmao.
I know you're not actually a pacifist since you're a zionist, quit playing dumb.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Im not a zionist. Are you a jihadist?
Edit: if you want the allies to storm isreal thats fine but as you might know, america isn't the world police. Ill stick with that. Should they supply isreal with weapons, no, but make your case to liberals by telling them that they should allow the death/displacement of millions of Jewish people.
