Helldivers 2 and Palworld devs wish players understood that 'easy' additions and updates are sometimes really hard: 'That's half a year's work. That takes six months'
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That's nothing new.
Gamers who don't know any programming, or maybe made a little utility for themselves. Looovee to bring out the old "just change one line of code", "just add this model", etc. to alter something in a game.
They literally do not understand how complex systems become, specially in online multiplayer games. Riot had issues with their spaghetti code, and people were crawling over eachother to explain how "easy" it would be to just change an ability. Without realizing that it could impact and potentially break half a dozen other abilities.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Well why didn't you start 6 months ago. It's not my problem. I paid full price. If you wanna be left the fuck alone sell games for $15 and take your time no one will bother you. When you start asking $80 a game the price sets expectations. Devs lack of planning is not my problem as a consumer.
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I think for something like this, you'd rent cloud servers as you'd expect the number of concurrent users to change over time and ideally would be able to spin up more capacity when you need it without having to have those machines available all the time. You still need some kind of system that decides when to order more capacity with enough warning that it's actually available (you can tell AWS you want a VM immediately, but it still takes a couple of minutes to transfer your data onto it and boot it up, which is longer than people want to sit in a loading screen) and decides which servers to assign to which users.
Interesting!
What kind of system would allow for that? Would queueing help?
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When a dev with game dev experience says something should be easy to fix, it's under the assumption of a reasonable code base. Most games are built off of common engines and you can sometimes infer how things are likely organized if you track how bugs are introduced, how objects interact, how things are loaded, etc...
When something is a 1 day bugfix under ideal conditions, saying it will take 6+ months is admitting one of:
- The codebase is fucked
- All resources are going to new features
- Something external is slowing it down (palworld lawsuit, company sale, C-suite politics, etc...)
- Your current dev team is sub par
Not that any of those is completely undefendable or pure malpractice, but saying it "can't" be done or blaming complexity is often a cop out.
In the real world there is no entirely reasonable code base. There's always going to be some aspects of it that are kind of shit, because you intended to do X but then had to change to doing Y, and you have not had time or sufficient reason to properly rewrite everything to reflect that.
We tend to underestimate how long things will take, precisely because when we imagine someone doing them we think of the ideal case, where everything is reasonable and goes well. Which is pretty much guaranteed to not be the case whenever you do anything complex.
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But other media said that coding is as simple as asking couple of question on chat.
Copilot, add destructible terrain to my game please
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Interesting!
What kind of system would allow for that? Would queueing help?
Unfortunately, I'm not the right kind of software engineer to answer in more detail than that.
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Well why didn't you start 6 months ago. It's not my problem. I paid full price. If you wanna be left the fuck alone sell games for $15 and take your time no one will bother you. When you start asking $80 a game the price sets expectations. Devs lack of planning is not my problem as a consumer.
Do you yell at waiters by any chance?
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When a dev with game dev experience says something should be easy to fix, it's under the assumption of a reasonable code base. Most games are built off of common engines and you can sometimes infer how things are likely organized if you track how bugs are introduced, how objects interact, how things are loaded, etc...
When something is a 1 day bugfix under ideal conditions, saying it will take 6+ months is admitting one of:
- The codebase is fucked
- All resources are going to new features
- Something external is slowing it down (palworld lawsuit, company sale, C-suite politics, etc...)
- Your current dev team is sub par
Not that any of those is completely undefendable or pure malpractice, but saying it "can't" be done or blaming complexity is often a cop out.
The correlation between code quality and game quality is almost negative. When you're doing groundbreaking stuff or going for your own artistic vision it's tough to code well, even more so when you hit a jackpot and have to expand quickly (e.g. League spaghetti, Palworld)
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menu system
I think you are vastly underestimating how complicated menu systems and UI in games are. I have a friend who works as a professional game developer in a small studio and far as I heard, he's spent most of his time just working on their UI/menus.
Changing these things is neither easy nor fast.
Correct. Once again, Gamers take developers for granted because something LOOKS like it's simple, but it rarely ever is. It's hella frustrating to deal with this every day as a dev, but I guess that's what you sign up for in this line of work.
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Well why didn't you start 6 months ago. It's not my problem. I paid full price. If you wanna be left the fuck alone sell games for $15 and take your time no one will bother you. When you start asking $80 a game the price sets expectations. Devs lack of planning is not my problem as a consumer.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Gamer who doesn't understand how gamedev works gets mad at guy telling them they don't get how gamedev works, demanding their treats get here, right now anyway after being told it actually takes a bit to make. News at 11.
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Unfortunately, I'm not the right kind of software engineer to answer in more detail than that.
Fair! I'm in web so wouldn't know either. What kind of software do you work in? I've been thinking about jumping careers lately after realising that I quite like architecting a more complex system, and sort of hate working with front end web dev
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My favorite one is "Just add multiplayer".
Sure. I'll just go right ahead and toggle it in the engine. Why didn't I think of that?
lemme just bang out a complete rewrite of the game functionality over lunch
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If gamers are bitching about a game not adding a whole new island, you should ignore them because they're clearly idiots.
If gamers are bitching about your menu system being navigable by someone with less than a PhD (cough, Risk of Rain 2 on console, cough), and you're estimating that will take 6 months to fix, then that's because you (as a company) coded your software badly.
Describing design problems and attributing them to "bad code" is part of the problem tbh. The issue in your example started long before any code was written.
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Gamer who doesn't understand how gamedev works gets mad at guy telling them they don't get how gamedev works, demanding their treats get here, right now anyway after being told it actually takes a bit to make. News at 11.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Found the lazy dev
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Copilot, add destructible terrain to my game please
I dont think anyone will claim that destructible terrain is an easy addition.
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Found the lazy dev
wrote last edited by [email protected]Yeah, you're probably right, the video game you personally made is probably better and we're just lazy. BTW I demand 20 hours of brand-new content to be released next week, and it better be cutting-edge, uniquely interesting and creative, bug-free and $4.99, or else you're a lazy dev, too.
It's genuinely funny watching these people learn absolutely nothing when slapped in the face with hard facts.
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My Helldivers gripe is that the war bonds cost too much for the casual player. 1000 super credits takes a while to gather, and even grind. Paying actual money for them is about $25aud per war bond. I think there's eight war bonds now? That's a full day's income, and you still need to collect medals to unlock the contents of the warbond.
Edit: You all don't need to explain this to me, I'm aware of the options for getting super credits. None of that changes how I feel about the game and that I'm losing interest because of it.
I’m hoping after we beat back the squids the devs give us another free warbond. That should hopefully bridge the gap for new or players who cannot spend money on the game.
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menu system
I think you are vastly underestimating how complicated menu systems and UI in games are. I have a friend who works as a professional game developer in a small studio and far as I heard, he's spent most of his time just working on their UI/menus.
Changing these things is neither easy nor fast.
wrote last edited by [email protected]The ROR2 new game menu has only a few elements:
- Character select
- loadout select
- difficulty select
- artifact select
- DLC select
That's it.
I know it isn't completely trivial, but as someone with many years of experience making (small) indie games, I know for a fact that a menu like that it should only be changing a few global variables. It's a frontend with very little backend to consider.
Something like that is not a year's work. I could agree with a month, and even at that, most of it will be testing, not design.
And tbh - the main problem with it isn't even its design (the design is fine) just its controls. You inexplicably have to use the D-pad for character select, but the analog stick for everything else, apart from switching to difficulty select with R2. Why not navigate the whole menu with either D-pad or left stick? That should only take a week to fix at the absolute maximum, unless they've managed to tie the code in a spaghettified knot that's unnecessarily coupled with actual game mechanics.
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I dont think anyone will claim that destructible terrain is an easy addition.
wrote last edited by [email protected]Sure it is, you just implement depth map deformation into the static terrain, totally doable! Then you just tie in a strain system to all the game's models so they fall when they don't have enough support, then add destruction animations for every static model and falling animations for every character. Totally easy, they had that back when the original Red Faction came out for PS2, the devs are just lazy! /s
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In the real world there is no entirely reasonable code base. There's always going to be some aspects of it that are kind of shit, because you intended to do X but then had to change to doing Y, and you have not had time or sufficient reason to properly rewrite everything to reflect that.
We tend to underestimate how long things will take, precisely because when we imagine someone doing them we think of the ideal case, where everything is reasonable and goes well. Which is pretty much guaranteed to not be the case whenever you do anything complex.
I agree, real code always has tradeoffs. But there's a difference between a conceptually simple change taking 3 weeks longer than planned and 6 months. The reality is game code is almost always junk and devs have no incentive to do better.
Getting a feature functional and out for launch day is the priority because you don't have any cash flow until then. This has been exacerbated with digital distribution encouraging a ship-now-fix-later mentality.
This means game devs don't generally have experience with large scale, living codebases. Code quality and stability doesn't bring in any money, customer retention is irrelevant unless you're making an mmo.
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I agree, real code always has tradeoffs. But there's a difference between a conceptually simple change taking 3 weeks longer than planned and 6 months. The reality is game code is almost always junk and devs have no incentive to do better.
Getting a feature functional and out for launch day is the priority because you don't have any cash flow until then. This has been exacerbated with digital distribution encouraging a ship-now-fix-later mentality.
This means game devs don't generally have experience with large scale, living codebases. Code quality and stability doesn't bring in any money, customer retention is irrelevant unless you're making an mmo.
And games are usually one and done, so there's even less motivation to write sustainable code.
