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  3. Secure use of remote control ?

Secure use of remote control ?

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  • R This user is from outside of this forum
    R This user is from outside of this forum
    rick_c137@programming.dev
    wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 08:00 last edited by
    #1

    Hi Raspberry Pi Community,

    I would like to use radio remote's control to trigger an events on my Raspberry pi.

    I guess I'll go with 433Mhz as I believe they are the most common available ?

    So I will need a 433Mhz RX/TX Module to connect on the GPIO, so far I get it...

    But how properly secure the communication between those remotes and the RPI to avoid any anyone to sniff the transmitting and replay it. In other words spoof it.

    Wubba Lubba dub-dub...

    R E Z H 4 Replies Last reply 2 Jun 2025, 08:22
    9
    • R rick_c137@programming.dev
      2 Jun 2025, 08:00

      Hi Raspberry Pi Community,

      I would like to use radio remote's control to trigger an events on my Raspberry pi.

      I guess I'll go with 433Mhz as I believe they are the most common available ?

      So I will need a 433Mhz RX/TX Module to connect on the GPIO, so far I get it...

      But how properly secure the communication between those remotes and the RPI to avoid any anyone to sniff the transmitting and replay it. In other words spoof it.

      Wubba Lubba dub-dub...

      R This user is from outside of this forum
      R This user is from outside of this forum
      randomuser@lemmy.world
      wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 08:22 last edited by
      #2

      Rolling codes may protect you from a replay attack, but if the attacker is more sophisticated and has worked out the algorithm, then they can send the commands and effectively lock you out.

      Is Bluetooth no good? Lots of protection baked in already.

      U R 2 Replies Last reply 3 Jun 2025, 09:29
      0
      • R rick_c137@programming.dev
        2 Jun 2025, 08:00

        Hi Raspberry Pi Community,

        I would like to use radio remote's control to trigger an events on my Raspberry pi.

        I guess I'll go with 433Mhz as I believe they are the most common available ?

        So I will need a 433Mhz RX/TX Module to connect on the GPIO, so far I get it...

        But how properly secure the communication between those remotes and the RPI to avoid any anyone to sniff the transmitting and replay it. In other words spoof it.

        Wubba Lubba dub-dub...

        E This user is from outside of this forum
        E This user is from outside of this forum
        elmicha@feddit.org
        wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 09:07 last edited by
        #3

        Does it have to be radio? Maybe infrared would be enough? You could use a TSOP 2438 as a receiver and any old IR remote.

        1 Reply Last reply
        1
        • R rick_c137@programming.dev
          2 Jun 2025, 08:00

          Hi Raspberry Pi Community,

          I would like to use radio remote's control to trigger an events on my Raspberry pi.

          I guess I'll go with 433Mhz as I believe they are the most common available ?

          So I will need a 433Mhz RX/TX Module to connect on the GPIO, so far I get it...

          But how properly secure the communication between those remotes and the RPI to avoid any anyone to sniff the transmitting and replay it. In other words spoof it.

          Wubba Lubba dub-dub...

          Z This user is from outside of this forum
          Z This user is from outside of this forum
          zachariah@lemmy.world
          wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 09:13 last edited by
          #4

          Might be a good use for PGP. The signal can be snooped and spoofed, but the messages should be end-to-end encrypted.

          E 1 Reply Last reply 2 Jun 2025, 10:38
          1
          • R rick_c137@programming.dev
            2 Jun 2025, 08:00

            Hi Raspberry Pi Community,

            I would like to use radio remote's control to trigger an events on my Raspberry pi.

            I guess I'll go with 433Mhz as I believe they are the most common available ?

            So I will need a 433Mhz RX/TX Module to connect on the GPIO, so far I get it...

            But how properly secure the communication between those remotes and the RPI to avoid any anyone to sniff the transmitting and replay it. In other words spoof it.

            Wubba Lubba dub-dub...

            H This user is from outside of this forum
            H This user is from outside of this forum
            hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
            wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 10:07 last edited by hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 6 Feb 2025, 07:14
            #5

            You'd use one of the rolling code mechanisms like in a keyless entry system, garage door opener or a car key fob. Maybe symmetric or asymmetric cryptography instead or on top. Depends on the exact use-case. But you'd have to build the remote yourself, I don't think that's in the readily available consumer products.

            If you want it less complicated, have a look at Bluetooth or ESP-NOW. Wifi and Bluetooth and other protocols have encryption handled for you.

            R 1 Reply Last reply 26 days ago
            3
            • Z zachariah@lemmy.world
              2 Jun 2025, 09:13

              Might be a good use for PGP. The signal can be snooped and spoofed, but the messages should be end-to-end encrypted.

              E This user is from outside of this forum
              E This user is from outside of this forum
              experimentalguy@programming.dev
              wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 10:38 last edited by
              #6

              Only problem with just using just pgp is that the signal would be vulnerable to a replay attack. I feel like a rolling code that's encrypted using PGP might be the way so that the replay attack part is gotten rid of.

              All that's to say, there's probably some technical paper that details the best way to set up a system like this.

              Z 1 Reply Last reply 2 Jun 2025, 14:12
              0
              • E experimentalguy@programming.dev
                2 Jun 2025, 10:38

                Only problem with just using just pgp is that the signal would be vulnerable to a replay attack. I feel like a rolling code that's encrypted using PGP might be the way so that the replay attack part is gotten rid of.

                All that's to say, there's probably some technical paper that details the best way to set up a system like this.

                Z This user is from outside of this forum
                Z This user is from outside of this forum
                zachariah@lemmy.world
                wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 14:12 last edited by
                #7

                Could it only accept serialized messages? Once it’s received a message, never accept the same exact message again.

                T 1 Reply Last reply 2 Jun 2025, 17:04
                0
                • Z zachariah@lemmy.world
                  2 Jun 2025, 14:12

                  Could it only accept serialized messages? Once it’s received a message, never accept the same exact message again.

                  T This user is from outside of this forum
                  T This user is from outside of this forum
                  tapdattl@lemmy.world
                  wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 17:04 last edited by
                  #8

                  Well then you'd have to keep track of all messages recieved. An easier option might just be to sign the current system time, make sure the clocks are synchronized, and accept a +/- 1 second wiggle

                  Z 1 Reply Last reply 2 Jun 2025, 17:36
                  1
                  • T tapdattl@lemmy.world
                    2 Jun 2025, 17:04

                    Well then you'd have to keep track of all messages recieved. An easier option might just be to sign the current system time, make sure the clocks are synchronized, and accept a +/- 1 second wiggle

                    Z This user is from outside of this forum
                    Z This user is from outside of this forum
                    zachariah@lemmy.world
                    wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 17:36 last edited by
                    #9

                    Wouldn’t it just need to know which is the highest message number it has seen? And then don’t accept that one or any lower ever again?

                    If the count is within the encrypted message, no one can spoof anything higher.

                    T R 2 Replies Last reply 2 Jun 2025, 22:34
                    1
                    • Z zachariah@lemmy.world
                      2 Jun 2025, 17:36

                      Wouldn’t it just need to know which is the highest message number it has seen? And then don’t accept that one or any lower ever again?

                      If the count is within the encrypted message, no one can spoof anything higher.

                      T This user is from outside of this forum
                      T This user is from outside of this forum
                      tapdattl@lemmy.world
                      wrote on 2 Jun 2025, 22:34 last edited by
                      #10

                      Oh fair good point

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      1
                      • R randomuser@lemmy.world
                        2 Jun 2025, 08:22

                        Rolling codes may protect you from a replay attack, but if the attacker is more sophisticated and has worked out the algorithm, then they can send the commands and effectively lock you out.

                        Is Bluetooth no good? Lots of protection baked in already.

                        U This user is from outside of this forum
                        U This user is from outside of this forum
                        ulterno@programming.dev
                        wrote on 3 Jun 2025, 09:29 last edited by
                        #11

                        Is Bluetooth no good? Lots of protection baked in already.

                        Well, if you have a 2 way communication capability anyway, it's not particularly difficult to implement a key exchange, followed by data transmission using a temporary key, similar to HTTPS

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • R randomuser@lemmy.world
                          2 Jun 2025, 08:22

                          Rolling codes may protect you from a replay attack, but if the attacker is more sophisticated and has worked out the algorithm, then they can send the commands and effectively lock you out.

                          Is Bluetooth no good? Lots of protection baked in already.

                          R This user is from outside of this forum
                          R This user is from outside of this forum
                          rick_c137@programming.dev
                          wrote 26 days ago last edited by
                          #12

                          I'm open to all solutions 🙂
                          But it there some ready Bluetooth remote pilot existing ?

                          R 1 Reply Last reply 26 days ago
                          0
                          • Z zachariah@lemmy.world
                            2 Jun 2025, 17:36

                            Wouldn’t it just need to know which is the highest message number it has seen? And then don’t accept that one or any lower ever again?

                            If the count is within the encrypted message, no one can spoof anything higher.

                            R This user is from outside of this forum
                            R This user is from outside of this forum
                            rick_c137@programming.dev
                            wrote 26 days ago last edited by
                            #13

                            I don't think this work's if you have multiple remote pilot tough...

                            Z 1 Reply Last reply 26 days ago
                            0
                            • H hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
                              2 Jun 2025, 10:07

                              You'd use one of the rolling code mechanisms like in a keyless entry system, garage door opener or a car key fob. Maybe symmetric or asymmetric cryptography instead or on top. Depends on the exact use-case. But you'd have to build the remote yourself, I don't think that's in the readily available consumer products.

                              If you want it less complicated, have a look at Bluetooth or ESP-NOW. Wifi and Bluetooth and other protocols have encryption handled for you.

                              R This user is from outside of this forum
                              R This user is from outside of this forum
                              rick_c137@programming.dev
                              wrote 26 days ago last edited by
                              #14

                              Thanks hendrik

                              But you’d have to build the remote yourself

                              maybe in the future, but I don't have the time for it now...


                              \

                              have a look at Bluetooth or ESP-NOW. Wifi and Bluetooth and other protocols have encryption handled for you.

                              So it their Bluetooth or WiFi remote pilot existing for that ?

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • R rick_c137@programming.dev
                                26 days ago

                                I'm open to all solutions 🙂
                                But it there some ready Bluetooth remote pilot existing ?

                                R This user is from outside of this forum
                                R This user is from outside of this forum
                                randomuser@lemmy.world
                                wrote 26 days ago last edited by
                                #15

                                Not really read up on it yet, but can you do serial over Bluetooth? Quick Google gave me this: https://raspberry-projects.com/pi/pi-operating-systems/raspbian/bluetooth/serial-over-bluetooth

                                There may even be an android app that could help.
                                Suppose it depends on the scope of your project.

                                Funnily enough I may have to do something with this tech myself later in the year.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • R rick_c137@programming.dev
                                  26 days ago

                                  I don't think this work's if you have multiple remote pilot tough...

                                  Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                  zachariah@lemmy.world
                                  wrote 26 days ago last edited by
                                  #16

                                  Each remote could have an ID number it sends.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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