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  3. The signatures are still coming and it's already making an impact

The signatures are still coming and it's already making an impact

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Games
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  • S [email protected]

    The original article completely misrepresents the initiative:

    We appreciate the passion of our community; however, the decision to discontinue online services is multi-faceted, never taken lightly and must be an option for companies when an online experience is no longer commercially viable. We understand that it can be disappointing for players but, when it does happen, the industry ensures that players are given fair notice of the prospective changes in compliance with local consumer protection laws.

    Private servers are not always a viable alternative option for players as the protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist and would leave rights holders liable. In addition, many titles are designed from the ground-up to be online-only; in effect, these proposals would curtail developer choice by making these video games prohibitively expensive to create.

    ...

    Stop Killing Games is not trying to force companies to provide private servers or anything like that, but leave the game in a playable state after shutting off servers. This can mean:

    • provide alternatives to any online-only content
    • make the game P2P if it requires multiplayer (no server needed, each client is a server)
    • gracefully degrading the client experience when there's no server

    Of course, releasing server code is an option.

    The expectation is:

    • if it's a subscription game, I get access for whatever period I pay for
    • if it's F2P, go nuts and break it whenever you want; there is the issue of I shame purchases, so that depends on how it's advertised
    • if it's a purchased game, it should still work after support ends

    That didn't restrict design decisions, it just places a requirement when the game is discontinued. If companies know this going in, they can plan ahead for their exit, just like we expect for mining companies (they're expected to fill in holes and make it look nice once they're done).

    I argue Stop Killing Games doesn't go far enough, and if it's pissing off the games industry as well, then that means it strikes a good balance.

    B This user is from outside of this forum
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    [email protected]
    wrote last edited by
    #91

    Another part of it is that if they discontinue support, they can’t stop the community from creating their own server software.

    There are so many ways to approach this. The point is ensuring consumers retain the right to keep using what they purchased, even if they have to support it themselves.

    S 1 Reply Last reply
    9
    • M [email protected]

      Can the EvE online method be applied to dissimilar games like e.g. fps games?

      A This user is from outside of this forum
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      wrote last edited by
      #92

      No clue, I just know that it exists and seems to work with the scammiest scammers that ever scammed

      1 Reply Last reply
      4
      • B [email protected]

        Another part of it is that if they discontinue support, they can’t stop the community from creating their own server software.

        There are so many ways to approach this. The point is ensuring consumers retain the right to keep using what they purchased, even if they have to support it themselves.

        S This user is from outside of this forum
        S This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote last edited by
        #93

        Sort of. They need to have the tools as well. So I suppose they could release the APIs for their servers before shutting down their servers so community servers can be created, that would probably be sufficient. But they need to do something beyond just saying, "we won't sue you if you reverse engineer it."

        1 Reply Last reply
        10
        • pupbiru@aussie.zoneP [email protected]

          honestly with online only games i’d be “okay” (not that it’d be great but okay) with them just releasing a bunch of internal docs around the spec. you’re right that open sourcing commercial code is actually non-trivial (though perhaps if they went in knowing this would have to be the outcome then maybe they’d plan better for it), but giving the community the resources to recreate the experience i think is a valid direction

          S This user is from outside of this forum
          S This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote last edited by
          #94

          Bold of you to assume such spec or docs exist. Usually it's all cowboyed and tightly coupled, with no planning for reuse.

          spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • M [email protected]

            They did not, they said you can be successful without corpo overhead and bullshittery.

            R This user is from outside of this forum
            R This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote last edited by
            #95

            Not to mention that studios like Larian have proven that it's entirely possible to make a blockbuster game without teams of 400 heads, changing direction and leadership every few years and laying off the people who made the product in the first place. They really seethed at that one, so many salty comments lol.

            E 1 Reply Last reply
            3
            • spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS [email protected]

              When the law passes, the owners of proprietary functionality will adapt their licensing to meet the requirrments or go out of business when everyone stops using them.

              T This user is from outside of this forum
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              wrote last edited by
              #96

              Look I get it. The planet is dying, income inequality, it seems everything is unfair and going to shit. People yearn at an opportunity to help make things better. But yelling for simple solutions is the opposite of helpful. Because there are no simple solutions.

              Saying to "just open source it" does not make sense.

              What do you do about:

              • proprietary codecs
              • proprietary software that just does not exist as open source
              • the fact you need a copy of the game engine to actually build the game from sources
              • assets that have been bought on asset stores. Do the people who make those for a living not have a right to continue to make a living?

              Making single player games without always online DRM: yes totally doable

              Running game servers of online games forever: not really doable, as soon as all the libraries etc. they depend on are unsupported they will shut down one way or another. You need staff basically forever. Not even mentioning the maintenance headache that every legacy system always turns into.

              Letting people run their own dedicated servers: sometimes doable, depends on the game though. Some games do not have "a server" but a whole infrastructure of stuff, look at foxhole. Some "servers" are a house of cards barely held together by duct tape.

              This initiative all comes down to the definition of "reasonable". What is reasonable, actually? Running an infrastructure at a loss until bankruptcy? Or just keeping it online until it starts making a loss.

              spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
              2
              • K [email protected]
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                Q This user is from outside of this forum
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                wrote last edited by
                #97

                Why are publishers speaking for devs about how much choice devs would have? Why not get devs to speak?

                psaldorn@lemmy.worldP M 2 Replies Last reply
                87
                • K [email protected]
                  This post did not contain any content.
                  noxypaws@pawb.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                  noxypaws@pawb.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                  [email protected]
                  wrote last edited by
                  #98

                  Curtailing developer choice is rather the point, no?

                  L 1 Reply Last reply
                  53
                  • M [email protected]

                    Anti-cheat is a necessary evil for competitive online games. No one wants to play a game against cheaters since they typically have an unfair advantage. If you can't combat cheating then you might as well not make the game since no one will want to play it. Fine by me since I don't care for such games but I could imagine people who like playing them might prefer to play against as few cheaters as possible. What are the alternatives?

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                    wrote last edited by
                    #99

                    Anti-cheat is a necessary evil for competitive online games

                    Client-side anti-cheat is useless. It's not a necessary evil, it's just evil. The minute the cheater/hacker has direct access to the system, you've already lost.

                    M 1 Reply Last reply
                    5
                    • K [email protected]
                      This post did not contain any content.
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                      wrote last edited by
                      #100

                      Yes, it curtails you from making absurd choices about how to fuck customers out of the money they paid for your games

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      18
                      • K [email protected]
                        This post did not contain any content.
                        K This user is from outside of this forum
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                        [email protected]
                        wrote last edited by
                        #101

                        Yeah, because the choices they have now is working great for quality games...

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        18
                        • C [email protected]

                          Anti-cheat is a necessary evil for competitive online games

                          Client-side anti-cheat is useless. It's not a necessary evil, it's just evil. The minute the cheater/hacker has direct access to the system, you've already lost.

                          M This user is from outside of this forum
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                          [email protected]
                          wrote last edited by
                          #102

                          Much like every form of security measure, the intention is not to completely eliminate the possibility of an attack (which is impossible in most cases). Instead, the intention is to increase the amount of effort that's required to make an attack.

                          C 1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • K [email protected]
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                            wrote last edited by [email protected]
                            #103

                            Backpedaling to "defending creators" - that's a bold move, Cotton.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            13
                            • S [email protected]

                              It doesn't, that's why companies rarely open-source their code. If you want to publish it you have to make sure you have all the rights to do so, you have to code in a way that's readable for outside users, you have to make sure people can reproduce your build process, and ideally you provide support.

                              On the other hand, if you're not developing the source for publication, you can leave undocumented dirty hacks, only have to make sure it builds on your machine, and include third-party proprietary code wherever you want. That's faster and cheaper, so naturally companies will prefer it.

                              B This user is from outside of this forum
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                              wrote last edited by
                              #104

                              There's no requirement that the open source code released after EoL has to be pretty or maintained, just functional to meet legal requirements. Using other 3rd party code would be a hurdle to get over I suppose. It would definitely take a different approach to design, but after the initial shock of changing, it wouldn't be more difficult to do long term.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              7
                              • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.comW [email protected]

                                Because you can buy other people's code for cheaper than developing it yourself, as long as you use it within the restrictions of the license you paid for.

                                B This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote last edited by
                                #105

                                The thing is either that license model changes, or those other companies selling the code cease to exist when nobody buys something they can't use.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                4
                                • S [email protected]

                                  True. That doesn't mean we shouldn't attack predatory behavior when we see it. If they want to sell me something, I need to own it, and that means I get to use it after they've stopped supporting it.

                                  mimicjar@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
                                  mimicjar@lemmy.worldM This user is from outside of this forum
                                  [email protected]
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #106

                                  When I pay to see a film in a theater, I don't own the film. I don't get to watch the film again after it leaves the theater.

                                  While I pay to see a concert, a play, or a musical, I don't own those performances. I don't get to see them again. They generally aren't recorded (Although that is changing in some limited cases.)

                                  I do think a game dying is terrible and I do think games should be clearly labeled (so people can make an education decision if they want to rent the game).

                                  B S 2 Replies Last reply
                                  0
                                  • mimicjar@lemmy.worldM [email protected]

                                    When I pay to see a film in a theater, I don't own the film. I don't get to watch the film again after it leaves the theater.

                                    While I pay to see a concert, a play, or a musical, I don't own those performances. I don't get to see them again. They generally aren't recorded (Although that is changing in some limited cases.)

                                    I do think a game dying is terrible and I do think games should be clearly labeled (so people can make an education decision if they want to rent the game).

                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    B This user is from outside of this forum
                                    [email protected]
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #107

                                    This isn't paying to see a concert, play, or musical. This is buying a book for amazon's e-reader, and them not allowing you to read the book anymore when they put out the book's sequel.

                                    spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS mimicjar@lemmy.worldM 2 Replies Last reply
                                    9
                                    • T [email protected]

                                      Look I get it. The planet is dying, income inequality, it seems everything is unfair and going to shit. People yearn at an opportunity to help make things better. But yelling for simple solutions is the opposite of helpful. Because there are no simple solutions.

                                      Saying to "just open source it" does not make sense.

                                      What do you do about:

                                      • proprietary codecs
                                      • proprietary software that just does not exist as open source
                                      • the fact you need a copy of the game engine to actually build the game from sources
                                      • assets that have been bought on asset stores. Do the people who make those for a living not have a right to continue to make a living?

                                      Making single player games without always online DRM: yes totally doable

                                      Running game servers of online games forever: not really doable, as soon as all the libraries etc. they depend on are unsupported they will shut down one way or another. You need staff basically forever. Not even mentioning the maintenance headache that every legacy system always turns into.

                                      Letting people run their own dedicated servers: sometimes doable, depends on the game though. Some games do not have "a server" but a whole infrastructure of stuff, look at foxhole. Some "servers" are a house of cards barely held together by duct tape.

                                      This initiative all comes down to the definition of "reasonable". What is reasonable, actually? Running an infrastructure at a loss until bankruptcy? Or just keeping it online until it starts making a loss.

                                      spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                                      spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                                      [email protected]
                                      wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                      #108

                                      This has nothing to do with open source.

                                      Nothing.

                                      Open source has zero relevance.

                                      None whatsoever.

                                      Nada.

                                      Their licensing will change so that it doesn't restrict keeping the game alive after servers go down or their license can't be used to kill an otherwise functional game. That's it.

                                      Games will be designed to include the ability to do private servers after the company servers go down. It will be a cost of development just like anything else they are required to do. If they don't want to include that, then they can choose not to make an online game.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      6
                                      • S [email protected]

                                        If that's their argument, then the counterargument is simple: preserve the game another way. If hosting servers is dangerous, put the server code into the client and allow multiplayer w/ P2P tech, as had been done since the 90s (e.g. StarCraft).

                                        What they seem to be doing is reframing the problem as requiring users to host servers, and arguing the various legal issues related to that. SKG just needs to clarify that there are multiple options here, and since devs know about the law at the start (SKG isn't retroactive), studios can plan ahead.

                                        It's just a disingenuous argument trying to reframe the problem into cyber security and IP contexts, while neither has been an issue for other games in the past.

                                        R This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #109

                                        Yeah, I agree. We have been hosting servers at friend houses with consumer (mostly our own gaming PCs) forever.

                                        The risk involved exists, but it's far from the threat they make it be.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        3
                                        • B [email protected]

                                          This isn't paying to see a concert, play, or musical. This is buying a book for amazon's e-reader, and them not allowing you to read the book anymore when they put out the book's sequel.

                                          spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                                          spankmonkey@lemmy.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
                                          [email protected]
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #110

                                          Or buying a physical book where they printed it with ink that fades after 2 years so it is no longer readable.

                                          vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.worksV 1 Reply Last reply
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