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  1. Home
  2. Piracy: ꜱᴀɪʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʜɪɢʜ ꜱᴇᴀꜱ
  3. I would still download a car if I could. 🚗

I would still download a car if I could. 🚗

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Piracy: ꜱᴀɪʟ ᴛʜᴇ ʜɪɢʜ ꜱᴇᴀꜱ
piracy
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  • R [email protected]

    I am 100% down for sailing the high seas. But let's not sugarcoat it, this analogy is always been kind of crap.

    Somebody went to your mailbox took out your paycheck, made a copy of it, put the original back in your box, went to the bank and cashed it.

    Theft still took place. You're probably still getting paid. Maybe it got taken up by insurance and everyone's premium goes up a tiny fraction, maybe it got taken up by the bank or by your business.

    It's still an incomplete analogy but it's a little bit closer.

    That's not to say that the vast majority of piracy isn't people who wouldn't pay anyway. And back in the day, you certainly got more visibility in your games from people who were pirating.

    But now that advertising is on its toes and steam exists, I won't think they're getting any serious benefit from piracy and I don't think that they're not losing At least modest numbers of sales.

    T This user is from outside of this forum
    T This user is from outside of this forum
    [email protected]
    wrote last edited by
    #29

    I am 100% down for sailing the high seas. But let's not sugarcoat it, this analogy is always been kind of crap.

    It's less an analogy than the literal legal definition of theft.

    Somebody went to your mailbox took out your paycheck, made a copy of it, put the original back in your box, went to the bank and cashed it.

    This analogy is crap. When they took your paycheck, that was theft. Even if temporarily, you didn't have the check. If they cash the fraudulent check, they're not copying the money; it's coming out of your account. That's also theft. Both cases, the original is being removed, whether it be the physical check or the money from your account. The only reason there might be a "copy" in your analogy is some sort of fraud protection by the bank, at which point it's the bank's money getting stolen. Still theft though.

    chozo@fedia.ioC 1 Reply Last reply
    22
    • R [email protected]

      I am 100% down for sailing the high seas. But let's not sugarcoat it, this analogy is always been kind of crap.

      Somebody went to your mailbox took out your paycheck, made a copy of it, put the original back in your box, went to the bank and cashed it.

      Theft still took place. You're probably still getting paid. Maybe it got taken up by insurance and everyone's premium goes up a tiny fraction, maybe it got taken up by the bank or by your business.

      It's still an incomplete analogy but it's a little bit closer.

      That's not to say that the vast majority of piracy isn't people who wouldn't pay anyway. And back in the day, you certainly got more visibility in your games from people who were pirating.

      But now that advertising is on its toes and steam exists, I won't think they're getting any serious benefit from piracy and I don't think that they're not losing At least modest numbers of sales.

      M This user is from outside of this forum
      M This user is from outside of this forum
      [email protected]
      wrote last edited by
      #30

      This is a horseshit analogy.

      Stealing money from your account is theft, it's not still there afterwards.

      The concept I think you might've been looking for is opportunity cost in that pirating deprives an artist of potential sales. Which is a fair point, but it is still not the same as stealing since it does not deprive the artists of their original copy.

      It's also all done in the context of a system that is not run by artists and does not primarily benefit artists, but is instead run by and benefits middlemen.

      chozo@fedia.ioC 1 Reply Last reply
      14
      • G [email protected]

        Piracy is somewhat similar to vigilantism to me. My ability to consider it a negative is directly related to how fair I consider the legitimate methods available to be.

        If similar efforts were focused on consumer protection laws as we do IP protection, I don't think pirates would have much leg to stand on, and they'd be seen in more of a negative light.

        But since consumers are regularly fucked by corporations, all I see is two sides both doing bad shit and I'm not feeling all that charitable for the faceless megacorp. I also dislike pirates who pirate from small time creators. But that's about as far as I can care given the state of things.

        We should be focusing on stronger consumer rights to truly fix the problem for all sides.

        K This user is from outside of this forum
        K This user is from outside of this forum
        [email protected]
        wrote last edited by
        #31

        Great point here.

        1 Reply Last reply
        3
        • G [email protected]

          Piracy is somewhat similar to vigilantism to me. My ability to consider it a negative is directly related to how fair I consider the legitimate methods available to be.

          If similar efforts were focused on consumer protection laws as we do IP protection, I don't think pirates would have much leg to stand on, and they'd be seen in more of a negative light.

          But since consumers are regularly fucked by corporations, all I see is two sides both doing bad shit and I'm not feeling all that charitable for the faceless megacorp. I also dislike pirates who pirate from small time creators. But that's about as far as I can care given the state of things.

          We should be focusing on stronger consumer rights to truly fix the problem for all sides.

          cosmicturtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.comC This user is from outside of this forum
          cosmicturtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.comC This user is from outside of this forum
          [email protected]
          wrote last edited by
          #32

          There is absolutely a connection between how shitty corporations are treating their customers with how likely those customers are likely to stop paying and start sailing.

          Netflix in its prime was the GOAT, showing a very significant decrease in piracy. We're only seeing a rise now because of the proliferation of streaming companies. No one wants to pay for 4+ streaming services.

          1 Reply Last reply
          24
          • T [email protected]

            I am 100% down for sailing the high seas. But let's not sugarcoat it, this analogy is always been kind of crap.

            It's less an analogy than the literal legal definition of theft.

            Somebody went to your mailbox took out your paycheck, made a copy of it, put the original back in your box, went to the bank and cashed it.

            This analogy is crap. When they took your paycheck, that was theft. Even if temporarily, you didn't have the check. If they cash the fraudulent check, they're not copying the money; it's coming out of your account. That's also theft. Both cases, the original is being removed, whether it be the physical check or the money from your account. The only reason there might be a "copy" in your analogy is some sort of fraud protection by the bank, at which point it's the bank's money getting stolen. Still theft though.

            chozo@fedia.ioC This user is from outside of this forum
            chozo@fedia.ioC This user is from outside of this forum
            [email protected]
            wrote last edited by
            #33

            Theft is more than just physically removing a non-fungible item. Depriving owed earnings is also considered theft, hence why piracy is considered theft because there is a debt owed for the pirated media. If you believe in wage theft, then you believe in IP theft.

            P 1 Reply Last reply
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            • melroy@kbin.melroy.orgM [email protected]

              Today you can download a car.. And then 3D print it for 'free'.

              unknown_0671@lemmy.blahaj.zoneU This user is from outside of this forum
              unknown_0671@lemmy.blahaj.zoneU This user is from outside of this forum
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              wrote last edited by
              #34

              hold on let me use my 50 different materials 3d printer that has to be bigger than a car to print one. or for me to learn how to make a car from its parts

              1 Reply Last reply
              3
              • django@discuss.tchncs.deD [email protected]

                I'd rather download some bicycles, but yes.

                I wished, we could pirate food.

                P This user is from outside of this forum
                P This user is from outside of this forum
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                wrote last edited by
                #35

                Dont let them catch you with your pink pineapples or you might get in trouble:

                https://patents.google.com/patent/USPP25763

                1 Reply Last reply
                2
                • J [email protected]

                  Ironically, piracy develops more ethical consumers

                  I This user is from outside of this forum
                  I This user is from outside of this forum
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                  wrote last edited by
                  #36

                  Because people don't want to pay for shit content. Let's take pirating out of the equation. If I read a book I borrowed and I really like it, I would buy. If the content was trash then I wouldn't. Same goes if I watch a movie, listen to an album, or eat a microwavable burrito at a friend's or family member's house.

                  B 1 Reply Last reply
                  30
                  • mrscottytay@sh.itjust.worksM [email protected]

                    Isn't it more akin to stealing money though? Or to be more precise stealing the potential of money since not everyone who pirates would ever have paid for it on the first place.

                    steve@communick.newsS This user is from outside of this forum
                    steve@communick.newsS This user is from outside of this forum
                    [email protected]
                    wrote last edited by [email protected]
                    #37

                    That assumes you were entitled to something that nobody owed you.

                    If the money was never yours, can you say it was stolen from you?

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • chozo@fedia.ioC [email protected]

                      Theft is more than just physically removing a non-fungible item. Depriving owed earnings is also considered theft, hence why piracy is considered theft because there is a debt owed for the pirated media. If you believe in wage theft, then you believe in IP theft.

                      P This user is from outside of this forum
                      P This user is from outside of this forum
                      [email protected]
                      wrote last edited by [email protected]
                      #38

                      Depriving owed earnings is also considered theft.

                      I mean, so is not doing anything... wait i better not give them any ideas.

                      S 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • tenchiken@lemmy.dbzer0.comT [email protected]

                        Cool argument, except a huge quantity of pirated works aren't "owned" by the creator or even a group that funded it, but instead by parasitic companies that abuse capitalistic tools to actually steal value from those creators.

                        I have thousands of purchased games. 3 categories here:

                        1: obtained as part of a pack (humble gog etc)

                        2: purchased AFTER trying out via pirate copy to know if it is my kind of thing

                        3: picked up early access due to demo or general interest from being a known smaller dev/studio (hare brained for example)

                        With less and less access to shareware and viable demos, piracy is often the only conduit to prevent me getting ripped off of $80 for something that looks like a shiny sports car but end up being another "buy $800 in dlc for the full story!" Ford pinto.

                        Additionally, I now flat refuse to fund the likes of Denuvo, and wish that piracy actively hurt the bottom line of companies deploying that kind of anti-user shit.

                        C This user is from outside of this forum
                        C This user is from outside of this forum
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                        wrote last edited by
                        #39

                        I dislike investors as much as anyone but someone had to fund development. At least until we get UBI

                        B tenchiken@lemmy.dbzer0.comT 2 Replies Last reply
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                        • D This user is from outside of this forum
                          D This user is from outside of this forum
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                          wrote last edited by
                          #40

                          Yeah, cause generally humans downloading things is good and AI downloading things is bad.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          2
                          • T [email protected]

                            This logic does no justice to the objective financial harm being done to the creators/owners of valuable data/content/media.

                            It does though, since no harm is being done.

                            The original creator/owner is at a loss when data is copied. The intent of that data is to be copied for profit. Now that the data has been copied against the creator/owners will, they do not receive the profit from that copy.

                            They also don't receive profit from not copying, unless there's a purchase made. By your logic, watching something on Netflix or listening to it on the radio is actively harmful to creators, which I think most people can admit is absurd.

                            but having free copies of the content available on the internet decreases the desire for people to obtain paid copies of the data.

                            You made this assertion, but don't really back it up. If you were correct here, being able to copy cassette tapes or burn cds would have killed the music industry decades ago. Piracy is the original grassroots promotional method.

                            At the very least it gives people an option not to pay for the data, which is not what the creator wanted in creating it.

                            That's a separate argument and doesn't relate at all to the supposed financial harm.

                            They are entitled to fair compensation to their work.

                            That's a loaded assertion. If I sing a song right now, what am I entitled to be paid for it? And you're ignoring that most of the "work" of being a musician (in most genres at least) is playing live performances, the experience of which cannot be pirated.

                            It is true that pirating is not directly theft, but it does definitely take away from the creator's/distributor's profit.

                            I don't think it's definite at all. Most of what musicians make these days is from merch and ticket sales, which piracy contributes to by bringing in new fans.

                            C This user is from outside of this forum
                            C This user is from outside of this forum
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                            wrote last edited by [email protected]
                            #41

                            You have some very entitled opinions, if everyone thought like you no one would create digital media. You're free to not watch movies or listen to music but it's pretty asinine to take things without compensating the creator and claim no wrongdoing

                            Edit: I assumed it would be pretty obvious I was talking about digital media that needed a budget but apparently not.
                            Of course anyone can make digital media for free in their spare time but you'd need some kind of income to support that hobby.
                            FOSS is the same but you need some income to survive.

                            S T H 3 Replies Last reply
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                            • reverendender@sh.itjust.worksR [email protected]

                              Surely you’re not saying that record labels are dishonest?!

                              B This user is from outside of this forum
                              B This user is from outside of this forum
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                              wrote last edited by
                              #42

                              Not enough clutching

                              1 Reply Last reply
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                              • C [email protected]

                                I dislike investors as much as anyone but someone had to fund development. At least until we get UBI

                                B This user is from outside of this forum
                                B This user is from outside of this forum
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                                wrote last edited by
                                #43

                                Eh, to an extent. If they are original funders, I agree. But when you have people or groups buying rights to music/movies/tv/etc to claim royalties in perpetuity, especially after the original creatives die, those people can fall into a pit of uncapped rusty rebar.

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • C [email protected]

                                  I dislike investors as much as anyone but someone had to fund development. At least until we get UBI

                                  tenchiken@lemmy.dbzer0.comT This user is from outside of this forum
                                  tenchiken@lemmy.dbzer0.comT This user is from outside of this forum
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                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #44

                                  or even a group that funded it

                                  I noted I'm ok with investors.

                                  I'm against parasitic groups that feed on properties and prevent money getting to the actual dev folks.

                                  C 1 Reply Last reply
                                  10
                                  • N [email protected]

                                    I for one would definitely download a car, if I did not already own one I really like.

                                    I'd happily let's others download mine, if it didn't affect me or my car in any way.

                                    D This user is from outside of this forum
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                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #45

                                    Same. Its not a fancy car, but its had no problem in almost a decade and gets good mileage. Download it all you like

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    9
                                    • M [email protected]

                                      This is a horseshit analogy.

                                      Stealing money from your account is theft, it's not still there afterwards.

                                      The concept I think you might've been looking for is opportunity cost in that pirating deprives an artist of potential sales. Which is a fair point, but it is still not the same as stealing since it does not deprive the artists of their original copy.

                                      It's also all done in the context of a system that is not run by artists and does not primarily benefit artists, but is instead run by and benefits middlemen.

                                      chozo@fedia.ioC This user is from outside of this forum
                                      chozo@fedia.ioC This user is from outside of this forum
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                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #46

                                      but it is still not the same as stealing since it does not deprive the artists of their original copy.

                                      The artist has ownership rights to all copies, not just the original; it's literally in the word "copyright".

                                      M 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • G [email protected]
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                                        wrote last edited by [email protected]
                                        #47

                                        I wouldnt download a car, but that's only because im fanatically anti car.

                                        Because cars are bad. There should not be cars.

                                        P 1 Reply Last reply
                                        47
                                        • nelots@lemmy.zipN This user is from outside of this forum
                                          nelots@lemmy.zipN This user is from outside of this forum
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                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #48

                                          This is an interesting argument. I don't think the two are completely analogous, and the whole thing falls apart once you go beyond consumer level usage due to piracy's inability to make new things like AI can. While piracy isn't going to get any game developers or musicians fired, AI image gen very likely will. The more it improves, the harder it will be for companies to continue justifying paying real artists.

                                          That said, you do make a good point that many pro-piracy arguments can be used all the same to be pro-AI image gen. At least at the individual consumer level.

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